The Trials And Tribulations Of Note Investing With Guest Host Jamie Bateman

November 10, 2020




Want to get into the note investing business but don’t know the first thing about it? Chris Seveney has got your back on this as he goes back into the basics of and frequently asked questions in note investing in this episode. What are notes? What is the difference between a note and a mortgage? How to they work together? What are deeds? Everything you need to know to get started is here. Join in!

Listen to the podcast here:

The Trials And Tribulations Of Note Investing With Guest Host Jamie Bateman

I’m with my co-host Jamie Bateman. Jamie, how are you?

I’m doing all right, Chris. How are you doing?

I’m good. We’ve got the new voiceover we had recorded for the intro. Did you like it?

Yes, it was cool.

I found this woman Fiverr who does voiceover and I’m like, “Is that really your voice?” She’s like, “Yes.” I had her do a bunch of stuff and it was cheapest. It’s $75 to get that done.

I’ve used Fiverr for our logo.

We’re going to be a little bit all over the place. We’re going to talk about a lot of things we’ve got going on. Some of the lessons learned, some of the things we probably have done and wished we haven’t done. This episode is going to be almost the trials and tribulations of a full episode. Where would you like to start, Jamie?

I know in a previous episode I mentioned this QWR, which is Qualified Written Response. This is the most expensive note that we’ve bought to date and it’s a performing note at least on paper. We bought this and I don’t even think we’ve received a payment yet. I’ve got the Qualified Written Response request, which forces us to comply, respond and forces me to pay $350 to the servicer to make that happen. I was over that, no big deal, but then I get an email from the same borrower that he’s got a hardship and he’s requesting forbearance. I’ve got to talk to Erin Quinn and figure out what my options are.

Did the email come from the borrower or an attorney?

It came from this third-party company, Home Matters USA. We’re not supposed to have any direct contact.

That’s why I was wondering because I remember in a QWR, it mentioned like, “Do not reach out to this person.”

I checked FCI’s portal and this company has the borrower’s contact information. This company has been pinging FCI and me leaving voicemails. I thought it was all about this QWR, but it turns out he’s formally requesting forbearance through this company. It’s a little bit odd in that there’s equity in the property. He was paying. All of a sudden there’s a new lender in town. I think he’s testing the waters and seeing how far he can push us. His hardship letter was saying that he’s a truck driver. Because of the COVID shutdown, he’s got back pain, back issues and he was unable to go get his shots in March.

Therefore, he was out of work for several months. Now that he was able to make his payments through family members and friends, whatever. He’s back on track with work and everything. He was able to get his shots, but he’s now requesting forbearance. To me, the timing is a little odd. Also, the fact that I’m sure he legitimately has back issues, but I’ve had back issues before and had shots. I’ve had epidurals. It didn’t help too much. I am not putting too much stock into this excuse, to be honest.

I pass on the epidurals. I got a herniated disc in my back. They said, “We can give this to you.” I’m like, “It’s temporary relief. If I probably lost weight, it would be the best thing I could do.” They’re like, “Yes.” I’m like, “Okay.”

My wife has had two kids and she’s never had an epidural and I’ve had several. I don’t know what that says about me. I guess I’m the wuss than the family.

Every man is a wuss in the family. I accept it.

I need to figure out what my options are. I’m inclined to say no if that’s a possibility, but I need to get legal counsel involved. That’s my trial and tribulation.

First, that historic house I sent you that we were going to bid on. A home inspector did a report on this because they said, “The starting bid is $25,000.” This house was listed as 5,500 square feet but it was 10,000 square feet with an attic space and everything. This is what’s the horror about this property. Whoever previously had it, they started gutting and renovating the inside. The millwork in this house was unbelievable. They’re trying to retain the millwork around the fireplaces because I think they had eight fireplaces. They had 8 to 10 bedrooms, which our thought process was, “We’ll get it and we’ll renovate it.”

We’ll lease it to somebody who can run it as a bed and breakfast. We were thinking instead of us running a bed and breakfast, we’ll lease it to someone in the area to do it. The roof was slate, which was still the original. It was leaking and it had no gutters on the house. The exterior of the house was stucco, which is like a plaster type finished. What was happening was the eaves of the roof had all rotted, but then the water was getting behind the stucco and on the sheathing behind. This house had 50-something windows on the outside, all of them are 6 to 8 feet in height. The stucco and the roof, all of that needs to get completely redone.

You had to rip the skin off this building, reshape it and redo the outside, redo the roof, the windows. We started counting on these things and we’re probably $150,000 on the outside. The ARV on this thing is only about $300,000. You still had the hole inside to get redone. We’ll go $25,000 to $30,000 may be up to $40,000 on this thing. It was for sale in the spring for $70,000 and nobody would touch it. The thing ended up selling in auction for over $63,000 plus it has a 10% buyer’s fee on it. It ended up selling for $70,000. I’m like, “Somebody’s going to probably get roasted on this one.” That was one little oddity we’ve had. It’s been a crazy week on the note space.

We don’t get taught this in note training. I have a borrower who’s asking for a forbearance. This is the fourth time this borrower has asked for a forbearance/loan modification. The borrower has stopped paying. He misses about four months. He will make 1 or 2 months payments, missed three months, make two months payments, missed three months then make three months. The loan amount is low. It’s like $250, $300. Every time I send a demand letter, it’s two of them so it’s $200 plus. It’s a month’s payment stuff. The guy reaches out to the attorney and finally, it was like, “I can start making payments again,” this and that and so forth.

I told the attorney, I’m like, “No restatement. I’m sorry, but this guy’s for the last eighteen months been saying he’s going to pay but he doesn’t.” He’ll make one payment and completely stops. It’s not owner-occupied. He’s not living in it. I believe it’s been a rental that he’s probably had trouble with the tenants. His latest is, “I’m selling my other property so I can pay this off in cash.” I went back said, “Show me the purchase and sale agreement showing this is under the agreement. Maybe what we’ll do is we’ll ask for a 30-day extension with the court to have you pay off the loan. Until I see that, we’re not going to.”

It’s all talk. We had talked before about those kinds of borrowers that put that track record where they’re almost worse than a straight nonperformer. You’re getting teased as the note investor and a lender because like, “He’s reinstated. We’re good to go.” He then goes dark for three months and then your servicing costs go up as well.

I’ve got another one and this is an interesting one as well. We got a win in the courts on one where there was a contract for deed where the borrower hasn’t paid in seven years. We sent a demand letter a couple of years ago, but you couldn’t foreclose on the borrower because of something the borrower was involved in. There are certain things like bankruptcy, the persons in the military and stuff. You can’t foreclose on them. This one, the borrower hadn’t been living in there but the borrower’s son had been living in there during the last seven years. He hasn’t a penny in taxes. We filed for foreclosure on this and they contested it. We offered them $5,000 Cash for Keys and get them out, which a strong Cash for Keys offer.

That’s higher than you usually do.

They came back and countered at $25,000. I laughed and said, “No.” I told my attorney to keep going. We filed a motion to dismiss their claim to dismiss then we won our court cases. We can proceed with the final summary judgment and then start with the process and so forth. My attorney was like, “Do you want to offer any additional Cash for Keys?” I said, “Reach out to them and see, but at this point in time, I’m not going to give them $5,000 because we’ve already spent that money. I’ll give them $1,000.” She reaches out and we can’t get in touch with them so we continue to plug along.

It’s unfortunate in some of these instances because the reality of it is and we’ve mentioned this a lot where we try and play ball with borrowers. If they’re not willing to play ball, there’s not much we can do. In this instance, it was being gracious to the borrower. For me, giving somebody who owes $100,000 and hasn’t been paying in seven years, a check for $5,000 and 60 days move out of the house. It’s not too bad of a gesture. They rejected it and they’re unfortunately probably going to get nothing. It’s unfortunate because I’ve had this happen in the past where you try and work a deal with somebody but for some reason, they think they should have some additional beneficial interest.

How do you see that one playing out?

I see that one playing out that we’ll have to get the eviction. I’m probably going to spend about $5,000 cleaning up this mess that they’ve left behind because it’s like a 20-acre property but at the end of the day, we should do okay.

My 2-acre property, which is that same one in Tampa I was talking about. I thought that was a big yard.

I have a 15-acre parcel in Arizona, which I talked about this on another episode where the borrower’s wife had passed away. He was a former military and he was having trouble making the payments. He owed what the property was worth. It might be a little underwater. He’s in his 60s. I offered him a twenty-year lease with a twenty-year extension, which would bring them to 105 to rent the property. It’s got a trailer on it so he’d still own the trailer. I gave him a ground lease for $1 a year. He’s responsible for taxes. It’s almost liked a commercial lease.

This was one that we’d bought as a nonperformer. We got it for a good price. This guy emailed me like, “I want to let you know the taxes are due November 2nd. I already paid them.” He’s got a horse and he’s a nice guy. I’m like, “What can I do to give back to this person?” He mentioned he doesn’t have any family and kids. When we were talking, I’m like, “What do you want to do with the property?” He’s like, “I have no one to leave it.” Instead of him paying $350 a month on a mortgage, he’s going to donate it eventually. Why not keep that $350 so you can enjoy it and spend it? It’s almost like a reverse mortgage a little bit.

He’s pulling out the equity in a sense.

He pulled out the equity where it’s like, “I’ve leased the property back.” I got as creative as I can get sometimes. Jamie, have you bought or tried to buy any assets?

I’ve been in the process of buying ten loans in New York. I have put in some bids on some other assets as well.

These loans are from me in New York.

I probably should have started off with that as my trial and tribulation.

This whole episode is about trial and tribulation. This one makes for a good story as well.

Getting these things boarded is the big hurdle here. Do you want to tell a little bit about the background first?

These were boarded with a servicer who you referred me to. I’m starting to blame you from the outset. Do you like how I already started this?

Facts are facts and that is true.

You referred this and they were servicing these loans for me and they weren’t doing that bad of a job, honestly. I’d give them a C-minus. They were there. Compared to some of these others, they look like the Tom Brady of servicing. In June, I bought a few extras and I went to board them with them and all of a sudden, I got an email from them saying, “We’re no longer servicing loans in New York and you need to move these.” I’m like, “Okay.” There are certain servicers who do New York who I won’t work with, probably the two main major players.

I was trying to find a smaller one and I spoke with another servicing company, but they wanted a twenty-loan minimum. A lot of them have one of these minimum amounts. One of them I’ve spoken within the past about moving a large portion of my portfolio over to them. We could never agree on pricing. Round and round, we finally get these boarded. They move them over to this other servicer who’s had them since June. I was all over them. Typically, a boarding process takes about a month. This was started in June and in September, they still haven’t boarded these. I got my attorney involved. It was ugly.

I decide at that point in time, Jamie was looking for some assets and I’m like, “I’ve got some assets for you.” These are 9 or 10 of them where we went to everyone. Four of them are performing, 3 or 4 of them are nonperforming, one of them is God bless you. I’m upfront with him and told him this. On the same token, I think I sold that one to you for $100. We’ve been trying now to get these boarded at FCI where Jamie’s going to have them boarded for about a month. I am emailing this person every day or every other day. They’re like, “I’m not leaving until these are done. I’m not this, I’m not that.” I’m committing myself maybe to an institution. Finally, they send out the email that 70% is because they screwed up the goodbye letters in FCI. I got to give FCI credit. People believe I’m saying this. They responded in a timely fashion and like, “We still need this information.”

They’re thorough on the frontend, for sure.

I’ll let you share your opinions on it.

It’s two of these. I’m buying ten New York notes from you. Two of them were with another servicer. Those got boarded immediately. It’s easy to compare the two, the group of eight and the group of two. I’ve never seen such incompetence, to be honest with you. I’m sure that the servicer is understaffed, but the fact that it has been a month. The 30th of September was our sale date.

Typically, when we say a month, that’s for the full process. This has been a month to send the preliminary data.

This hasn’t been a month to get the goodbye letters prepared, which were then prepared and are wrong. I’m trying to get these things boarded and then figure out our plan. We’re doing an addition on our house and you’re welcome to come use it at any time instead of paying you for the loans. I was staying out of New York as a hard and fast rule. I read an article about judicial versus non-judicial states and how it can be a big misconception. Many note investors immediately target non-judicial states. I don’t want to go off too far of a tangent here, but I’m excited to play in the New York field.

Most people forget that New York’s a big state. When you get out of the southeast corner of New York in the city area and you get up towards Canada, there are some cities up there that do pretty well, Rochester and some areas up in that area. It’s a completely different world up in that area compared to being down in the city. You can foreclose in that area. You can also go through the federal courts is what some people will do to speed up the process. It’s different than down in New York City, the types of courts in the systems and how things run.

You almost got to look at it in two completely different states. The challenge that I have for me personally is because I burned too many bridges with servicers and I’m trying to find someone to service those and there are not many because the regulations, the service in New York are overwhelming. For example, the company has to have three people sign. Most people stay out of New York. It’s expensive to get a servicing license. From a services perspective, it’s like, “If I only have twenty loans, it’s not worth us to go spend all this money, get licensed and only service was a small amount of loans in that area.”

It’s the bigger servicers that end up doing it competently.

I do want to go back to get an understanding about this article you read because it was going to beg the next question. Are you looking at some newer states to invest in?

Let’s get these New York loans boarded. I had made a promise to my wife that we wouldn’t expand any further. I was pretty quickly in about 8 or 9 states for recording purposes. All the courts and everything is different with each state. We still have our eleven states that were focused on. I’m not looking to expand further. I’d like to buy more in Georgia. Get that licensing cost back and go from there. I’m certainly not opposed to expanding geographically. Maybe 2021, but I think at this point I’m focusing on these New York assets. Our portfolio is probably the prudent way to go. We’ll be up to about 34, 35 notes at this point plus some that we hold in our IRA. This is decent amount at this point.

Let me guess the eleven states you have. Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, New York and Arizona. How about Tennessee?

No, I’ve bid on some there.

How about Missouri?

Yes. I got a few in Missouri. There’s a big one that’s probably half of our portfolio.

Indiana, Michigan or Ohio?

We have a couple in Indiana and Michigan is our big one. I’m excited about Birmingham. We did a mod and I bought it from Gail. I think this one could be profitable if we can hold it for another eight months or so and sell it. The nightmare on Elm Street, that was the only Maryland one and none in Virginia. Texas and Mississippi are the last one. I’ve got two in Mississippi.

One that I tell you that’s tough if you start moving further west, Oklahoma is a tough state. Pennsylvania is a tough one, but I like Pennsylvania for some reason. I’m attracted to Pennsylvania for some unknown reason.

For my list, we go through the states we purchased in. For years, we’d go through the short-list of states

I’ll run off. I’ve got Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri and Montana. Nevada, New Jersey, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming. That’s 37.

You have more states than we have notes.

I have no interest in Oregon, Pacific Northwest and Northeast. I saw one in Massachusetts even though I’m from there. One thing I’ll mention to tag along what we were originally going to somewhat talk about was the end of year deals and what we may see and stuff like that coming towards the end of the year. I’ll throw out there. A little teaser, typically November is when I see the best deals. People start putting stuff out in November to close before people run out for the holidays. Right before the holidays, that’s the junk that’s leftover will get one last growth throw at you.

I feel like I’ve seen a slight uptick in assets available. I’m hoping that’s something that’s indicative of the next month or so.

I’m looking at a tape. It’s got about twenty assets on it. The acquisition is probably about $750,000. I’m talking with the seller trying to get something. It’s somebody who I bought a lot from, but it’s a different asset manager within this fund. This guy has been painful. I bid on these things and I never even got a counter or response and it’s like, “We’re not going to sell them now.” I got an email. Did you get the email about interest in CFD? Somebody has got 60 CFDs. I replied. I’m like, “Yes, but tell me what their pricing expectation is because if they want $0.95 on the dollar, go pound sand.” If it’s something that’s realistic, it’ll be something. I did read somewhere that I thought I saw another lawsuit pop-up but against Vision Properties. It was an article where it said they were targeting minorities as part of these loans in these low-income neighborhoods to sign up on these high interest, high payment loans and stuff like that. We got an attorney general going after them.

Another thing we’re working on is CFD conversions.

October 1st in the National Mortgage News, “Predatory lending suit alleges Vision Properties targeted black buyers,” is the article. I’m stating what the article says. I have no opinion on it because I don’t want somebody saying, “You said this.”

It’s one more indication that the whole CFD world may not be what it was.

For people who want to hear a history of CFDs. During the downturn, Fannie and these GSEs were selling all these properties as our REOs. This is where the media personally went a little overboard. They were selling these properties for a few thousand bucks apiece. It’s like when you buy a pool, but these were pools of 10,000 homes or whatever it was. Some of them are going to be worth more. Some are going to be worthless. They wrap and say, “We’re buying these 10,000 for $10 million,” or whatever the magic number is. They may allocate an even split for every house.

When people say, “This person bought this house for $5,000, did not fix it and then turned around and sold it to somebody for $30,000.” The reality is it doesn’t matter what that person bought it for. That’s the same thing with some of these where I had a borrower say, “The deed says you paid $4,000 for this.” I said the same thing. “It doesn’t matter what we bought the thing for.” I explained to the borrower, I said, “I buy these in pools of many. I can also show you a house that for $15,000 I bought in the house has burned down. There’s not a house there and it’s got $30,000 in taxes and it’s worthless. I’ll sell you that for $15,000, if you want it.” I don’t even like to entertain the conversation because it is completely irrelevant.

The whole predatory lending thing brings back memories. I was a title settlement officer notary mostly doing refinances years ago. This is when right before the crash in 2002 to 2004. It’s when I was doing this job. This is when nobody thought interest rates could go any lower than 6% and 5.5%. I had a lot of firsthand experience with mortgage brokers who were shady. I would be sent to these closings to get the documents signed, notarized them, explain the documents. I’m the closing agent. If you’ve ever done a refinance, you’ve dealt with this person before. I’m not the one selling them this. I’m not their mortgage broker, but we don’t get paid as a title company unless we close the deal.

There is certainly pressure on me to close this. Some of the times I’d get a call from the mortgage broker, the loan officer on this deal who most of the time didn’t even show up at closing. They would never even meet the borrower. I’d get a call from some of these loan officers and they would say, “Don’t go over the numbers with them.” Some things may have changed a little bit when they signed the initial paperwork. Have them sign everything and then get the closing done. I’ve had borrowers walk out because it wasn’t anything like what they were expecting to sign. It’s always tough because the truth is always somewhere in the middle it seems. Yes, there are predatory lenders out there, but there’s also the fact of individual responsibility. You’re not forced to sign this. Every case is different.

I’ll share an example because I recall vividly. The problem is nowhere in our education system we teach finance, truly teach people how to manage money. I graduated college and I had a Civil Engineering degree, which I think is a good degree. In my twelve years of high school and four years of college, never did I sit down and looking at it, “I want to go buy a car.” It was a $30,000 car at 6%. I started looking at the numbers. I’m like, “I’m going to pay all this interest on this? That’s a lot.” Nowhere did they ever teach you any of that. In 2004, I was looking for a property. We get pre-approved and stuff and the mortgage broker tells us, “This is the big interest time with 80/20 loans.”

They’re like, “You can afford a $600,000 home at 6%.” I’m like, “The payment was something ridiculous.” At the time, between the 1st and 2nd, with tax and everything, it was over $4,000 per month. At the time, I’m running the numbers and the payment was $4,600 or something. I’m like, “I only bring in $5,000 a month.” “I got cars, groceries and bills.” How can I spend 90% of what I take home? This is what the numbers say. I said, “Where are you getting these numbers? Because clearly, this doesn’t work.” The problem is, it goes back to, yes, I should know and I should run the numbers, but most people like a teacher or somebody else, when somebody comes to you and says, “This is what you can afford and this is what they’re licensed in,” you want to believe them.

They’re an authority on the matter. A lot of people got in a lot of trouble that way. A lot of borrowers did during that time period.

It’s one thing. It’s on the borrower at the end of the day. Here’s where I’ll go back to the other side. Here’s how much can you afford side, but then there’s the condition of the property. If you’re getting a property from somebody on a land contract or something and the property is being sold for $30,000 and it doesn’t have electric or anything else on that property, they should know after going to look at this property to have some insight what’s entailed and realize, “I’m not moving into the penthouse at the Ritz.” This thing is going to need some sweat equity. They probably aren’t going to understand that every little detail because they probably didn’t have a home inspection, but they should at least understand like, “This is going to still need a decent amount of work.” There’s that happy balance.

I do think there’s a legitimate business model as far as buying a distressed property, fixing them up, selling them with some form of seller financing. I think that’s going to be even more prevalent here in the next few years. That’s not the same thing as what you’re describing where this buyer has never even been inside the property. The property needs $50,000 in work. They have no idea what they’re doing with the rehab or personal finance or any of it. That person’s being taken advantage of. I don’t know how some people sleep at night, to be honest.

Jamie, I think we’ve had a mixed bag of topics. Why don’t we roll into our Note and Bolt? Do you have one?

My Note and Bolt might sound a little elementary for the more experienced note investors out there. For new people, when you’re getting forced place insurance on a CFD. It’s appropriate for our CFD conversation, make sure you get liability coverage. If you’re brand new and you’ve never bought a CFD before, you may not even know what I’m talking about. When you go to get FPI, whether it’s through your servicer or an outside company like JB Lloyd. When you own a CFD, you have legal title to that property. The borrower has what’s called Equitable Title, but you’re the one on the deed. That sounds great, but there are a lot of headaches that can come with that and liability. If somebody trips and falls on your property whether it’s the borrower or not, you could be liable for that. The point I wanted to make, not everybody even thinks about that when you’re buying these CFDs. Make sure you get liability coverage that may or may not cost more on your policy. On a traditional note and mortgage, it’s not necessary. You’re not responsible, you’re not on the deed.

I’ll tag into that. Having an umbrella policy that wraps all your properties as well.

How do you do that? We have an umbrella policy, but I’m curious how you’ve done that, Chris.

I’ve got several different insurances I’ve got. Through JB Lloyd, they have different policies and that’s one thing. Understand your policy and make sure you walk through it. They have a lender type policy and they have an investor policy. The investor policy is what I have. It’s more expensive but it has a lot more coverage. One of those has got a $2 million umbrella that covers all my properties. I’ve individual liability on each property and then an umbrella that covers. Through a local insurance agency, I also have general liability errors and omissions and a bunch of other random things as well for insurance.

Insurance is one of those topics. Homeowners’ insurance specifically is one that I don’t love, but it’s important.

That’s one of those things that you don’t know what you got until something happens and then you get burned. My Note and Bolt is a little different. My wife and I had our ten-year anniversary. We’re joking what to get and stuff. I was thinking the kids maybe like an Oculus or something like that and so forth. For me, I’m a simpleton. She got a membership to what’s called Mindvalley. I don’t know if anyone’s ever heard of it. It’s like a self-development. It’s more based on the theory that from a learning perspective, most people are taught to cram in as much information as quickly as possible and think that they’re retaining a lot of that where studies have shown when you read a book the next day, 80% of it you’ve forgotten.

When you think about taking note investing and doing training or something, do a day or a weekend course. If you’re only retaining 20% of it, but then the 20%, you don’t know what you don’t know. You don’t even know what’s important to retain and not, how much value we’re getting? What I like about this is it has a lot of self-development about how to be a better marketer, how to be a better speaker, how to be more entrepreneurial. It was a lot different. Also, how to remember people’s names. That’s the first one I took because I forget everyone’s name. I think it was $600 for a yearly membership and you have access to everything.

What I like about is every lesson is daily and it’s only about 10 to 20 minutes a day. You can’t advance. You can’t skip and go three days ahead. What they have is a forum for each quest where it’s almost like a membership group site and stuff where they go through this stuff. You can then hear other people’s stories. The other thing is it’s a lot of like-minded people. You can network with other people. I was networking with somebody and we’re just sharing stories, tell them what I do. People are amazed at what you do. That’s my Note and Bolt where I never even heard of it.

My wife’s like, “Try this and stuff.” For people, trying to self-educate sometimes. It’s something that’s a little different. People don’t like to read, I’m not a big reader. From that perspective, it’s cool how it has these videos and so forth. The guy who created it has an interesting story. He was a computer engineer who worked for Microsoft. He was a VP at Microsoft and said, “Screw this. This isn’t what I was meant to do.” He went and started being a meditation teacher for a while. He thinks outside the box that the way our education system is antiquated. The new way of educating people is information and snippets so people can try and retain it. You take what you’ve learned from that day and try and implement it in some strategy.

That’s interesting.

It’s fun to throw it out there. I think it’s Mindvalley.com. They are not paying, sponsoring or anything along these lines. It’s something that I started taking, I’ve been doing it for a week. I think it’s cool. In 2 to 3 months, I’ll give more of a thorough review because sometimes things start out good and realize it’s not. I find for somebody who is looking for some direction, it might be beneficial especially if you’re trying to start a business and you haven’t had management experience or any type of sales, marketing, or presentation skills. It’s something that I think somebody could find a lot of value from.

I would think anybody could benefit from that kind of thing. We all need coaching. We all need to take a step back and look at where we’re headed and what we are trying to do here.

A lot of people who are teaching these classes, if you Google them, they’re very successful. Jamie, do you have any final thoughts before we wrap up this episode?

No. Go out and do some good deeds.

Thank you all for reading.

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