E330 | Kevin Kim on Building Bulletproof Mortgage Funds – PTNC Know Your Speakers Series

On today's episode, I had the privilege to speak to Kevin Kim, a leading authority in securities law and fund formation within the private lending space.

Kevin, who leads a corporate securities practice with Drossi and if you haven't heard of Drossi, they provide a ton of content out there on the web, online, they host conferences, and he has in his team structured hundreds of private placement memorandums and other investment vehicles from mortgage fund to debt offerings syndications.

He's been recognized as an educator and one of the lead instructors for their certified fund management course.

We had the privilege to talk to Kevin about the Paper Trail Conference, what he's going to be talking about September 18th to 20th in Chandler, Arizona.

And again this we're trying to get to let people know who the speakers are we're bringing to this awesome event.

So hope you enjoy this episode.

Hey Kevin, how are you doing today?

Fantastic.

So pretty little crazy story I was telling Kevin before we hopped on today of being in the mortgage in the note space, you see some interesting things and oh yeah, Kevin, who's joining us today, who is an attorney and why don't you tell us a little bit about, you know, what you're doing today and what got you into becoming an attorney.

Yeah.

So I am a partner at Drossi llp.

We are the nation's largest law firm dedicated to private lending.

We focus in the world of, as you can call it, non bank real estate finance.

We work with small and large operators from local mom and pop operations all the way up to the institutions and some quasi banks.

And our role is that of counsel.

Right.

So we are their transactional attorney, we are their compliance attorney.

We are in California, the litigation attorneys.

And we live and breathe all things private lending, hard money lending, private money lending, however you want to call it.

Right.

We do a lot more work in residential than we do in commercial and that's just by virtue of the growth of that sector.

I lead the firm's corporate and securities practice.

So I'm a securities attorney by training and I do private offerings and crowdfunding and fintech work and then a little bit of corporate M and A and a lot of licensing work as well for private lenders.

And so we are actively involved in forming new lenders and helping them set up their funds or their capital raising opportunities to build balance sheet strategies.

We also advise them on big picture strategy and then we also get them licensed.

Right.

So if they need a license in a certain state, we'll walk them through that, we'll apply for it on their behalf.

And then we also handle any kind of like M and A.

Usually on the sell side.

Our clients are typically the ones selling, but once in a while, once in a while we'll represent a buyer.

As for me, I joined the firm back in 14.

Funny story, I'm actually a third generation banker, so my father was a banker, his father was a banker in Korea.

And I followed in their footsteps and worked in banking for a little while after college and did not enjoy the world of banking, but did definitely enjoy being a loan officer and enjoyed underwriting and understanding how real estate works and how loans work.

It really, it was really eye opening.

I got it relatively easily and I think it's probably genetic.

Right.

So, and then I went to law school and found myself excelling in the world of corporate law, finance law and M and A and securities transactions and securities law.

And so I ended up during my time in law school and I, I worked at the sec, the sba.

So a lot of this kind of finance related, investment related jobs during law school.

So that wasn't fun.

And you know, for a year just, you know, did whatever I could to pay the bills, worked out boutique shops doing litigation for a little while, figured, you know what, there's no jobs but litigation jobs, might as well learn litigation.

Hated it and ended up working at a small boutique, working with international, mostly Asian banks and their US counterparties.

And so that was a very nice segment of my career.

Then I had my own office for a little while.

I joined Ross as a contract attorney.

And then they got busy and one of the partners was retiring and so he happened to be my boss.

Right.

So he was retiring and effectively took over the practice.

And here we are today.

And thanks to the efforts of my partners, our wonderful marketing team, particularly the efforts of people like Nima Dakmandan and Melissa Morrell and Dennis and Ruby, we've really been able to entrench ourselves in the world that is private lending.

Right.

So both residential and commercial.

And we find ourselves being, I would say like 97% of our client list is in that arena.

Right.

We have a handful of clients who are real estate developers because I do securities work as well on that side of the house, but it's mostly lenders.

And so by virtue of that, I've become quite well versed in the world of fund formation for these lenders across the industry and across sizes.

Right.

Like you Know, you can be a brand new emerging manager and you could be managing $5 billion at, you know, the kind of depends on who they are, but they are all kind of on our client list and we work with them just the same.

And so it's been really great to watch both the industry grow at all levels, but it's also been really great to see our clients grow.

And I've been really honored to be a part of that.

And one of the things I think that's very rare about your firm is, I'll use the term, it's a one stop shop.

And what I mean by that is you mentioned you've got formation, you can get the licensing which, you know, there's certain states you need to be licensed in this if you're going to raise money.

Kevin can write your 506B or C or whatever type of offering that you want to go in.

If you're looking for then to, you know, start originating loans and you're looking for the documents, Nema and that team can then originally get all the documents written and handle the closings for you.

And basically you don't have to go outside of that.

I'm aware of your firm.

To get something done within the space, you kind of got all the bases covered.

Correct?

We try, we tried our best, especially transactionally speaking.

We tried to be all things.

When it comes to the transaction size, the only area probably can't help with is like, you know, national foreclosure.

Yeah, we're working on that.

But we can't do it yet.

And we haven't solved the problem of like tax.

Right.

We just can't.

We didn't found that it's better to use CPAs than to bring on a tax attorney partner.

Because there's tax attorneys.

You think I'm expensive?

They can be really pricey and they don't really give you the best answer.

So, you know, I find the CPA stuff is also some of the areas that, you know, it's very important to all clients.

I do joke, you know, again, attorneys keep me afloat.

And you know, I always joke with an attorney and especially a tax attorney.

When you ask a question, the initial response is always, it depends.

You know, it depends.

And tax attorneys are really, you know, interesting in regards to certain things.

And I can see why, because tax laws are, and you know, the IRS code is not black and white as compared to, you know, other types of, you know, I'll say, you know, real estate law, you know, has, you know, a lot of case law.

Behind it in those states.

So.

So as you mentioned, you know, you handle a lot on the, you know, security side of things, you know, with the investors and so forth, and writing some of these offerings for them when somebody comes to you.

And again, you're an attorney and, you know, I'll say you don't provide any types of financial advice or anything, but what are some of the, you know, common mistakes or things that you try and get people on the right path for when they want to go out and start raising money?

Because I know again, we raise money going from, hey, I'm writing some private loans to raising capital, goes from being a lender to running a business.

And it's also know, different.

What are some of the things that you see that.

Yeah, you know, you try and without getting too granular.

I think the biggest flaw that we find is that people think that, like you said, right, the idea of, like, I funded a few loans, therefore I'm a lender, right?

I'm like, let's hold on.

There is a difference between someone that invests in loans that originated by somebody else and serviced by somebody else versus someone that is in the active trader business of originating loans, servicing loans, dealing with borrower requests, marketing the business and really trying to scale it, right?

And that's where we find the best performers, right?

The clients who come to us and say, all right, I think I want to raise some money.

It's those people that are kind of a little bit more ready, right?

And what I find is also people underestimate how hard raising capital is, right?

And it's not the easiest thing in the world because you're really trying to build multiple layers of trust, but you're also building multiple layers of raw.

Consider financial aptitude and conveying that aptitude to the investor, right?

And you have to understand how to look at it from two lenses, right?

Both on the lending side of your business, but also effectively wealth management.

Right?

And you really have to.

You're not an advisor, but you have to act as a fiduciary in that respect.

And so there's a lot of hats you have to wear.

You have to have a certain set of skills to be very good at raising capital and have a certain network.

And it's not the easiest thing.

I don't think it's the most challenging thing.

I actually think it's much harder to scale private lending business.

But at the same time, many people out there underestimate, you know, how much work it is.

And they also underestimate, like, the tools they need, unfortunately, in the private sector, of raising capital, there's just too many, I would call them, low cost providers and gurus out there that kind of just like drop a doc set with you and say, all right, have fun, go, go do the thing, right?

And you're trying to save money, but in reality, you, because you chose to save money on, on legal accounting and all the other pieces, you may have put yourself in a situation where like, you make a mistake because you didn't know any better, right?

And lo and behold, now you're in trouble with the regulator or you're in trouble with your investors, or you're in trouble with something else.

Who knows?

Right?

And so, you know, one of the things we always tell people is like, this is not an arena you want to cut corners in, particularly because the SEC is right there.

Right.

And they're no slouches.

Right.

And same thing with your local lending regulator.

Right.

And so these kind of things and the IRS too, Right.

So there's a lot of that kind of stuff that I see a lot of.

Thankfully, the growth of the industry and the increase in sophistication, people have been able to really, I would say professionalize their businesses, institutionalize their businesses, and that's having a really good effect on the industry.

So yeah, I think, you know, looking back, you know, the JOBS act has had a very big benefit to, you know, the private lending space in regards to raising capital.

That's huge.

And you know, I've read some that I've seen that I just scratch my head of like, who wrote these?

Because there weren't even terms in there for what the returns were for the investor or how you redeemed or how long your money had to stay in.

And you know, and, and it puts.

You in a weird position, right.

Because every investor's worried.

Yeah, everyone's.

It's a trust issue.

Are you a Ponzi scheme or are you not?

Right.

And so a hundred percent.

And the interesting part about our industry is a lot of the investors in our industry, LPs particularly have investments in other strategies.

And so if you come to the table with documents and packages and systems and processes and a business that looks like amateur hour, right, you're not going to be able to raise the money that those guys, your competitors, have been able to.

Right.

And there's a finite universe that you can play with, play in, and that's going to be like your immediate network.

And that's really as far as you can get with it, you know.

Yeah.

And one of the things that I've, you know, seen with, you know, some people that I talk with who have attempted and unfortunately weren't successful, and we've talked with some of the lessons learned is, you know, when they try and do, I'll call it, you know, a debt fund and, you know, lend money is, you know, they may go raise $2 million, and a lot of times they overshoot the returns they provide to their investors.

Because what they forget to mention is or, or account for is just because you've got $2 million, that doesn't mean you're going to have a loan perfectly that fits that 2 million, because you still need operating costs and everything else.

And, you know, you need to put money in holding and some of these other avenues and so forth.

So, you know, if you're charging a borrower, let's just say you're doing a private loan at 10%, you know, that doesn't mean that it's like, oh, I'll give my investor 9% and I'll, I'll take 1% off the top.

Work like that, you know, And I think people find out the hard.

I mean, that's one of the fun assumptions, right.

You're going to be fully deployed at all times.

But the flip side of that is you're going to be, you're not going to be able to raise enough money to satisfy your incoming demand.

Right.

On the loan side.

But on top of all of that, if you don't have a grasp, if you're only understanding what you're doing in your strategy at the given time from rates and points standpoint, you're far from understanding what you're going to do in three years as you build a business.

You have to understand, like, hey, once you get to that point, that, that hopefully you're competing with bigger shops, meaning that you have to, you have to understand what the rates are.

Yeah.

What we've, what we've noticed is a lot of people come like, oh, I'm in California, I'm doing 14 and three, okay.

That means you're doing very, very narrow stuff, like a narrow market for what you're doing.

And if you're going to scale, right, if you're really going to scale, you have to assume that you're going to be offering a 10 and 10 and 2.

That's what everyone else in California is offering.

Yep.

So you better understand that your fund has to look like, has to have those assumptions in mind.

Right.

And that's one of the flaws is that, you know, a lot of attorneys don't act as a consultant walking the client through certain assumptions and they just do what they're told.

And unfortunately that ends up with situation where the client's now offering 12% in a California market.

They're doing 10% loans.

So I mean, 10%.

I know a year, year and a half ago I had people talking about like in the San Diego area, they were like start.

Some people are like nine.

The average fix and flip rate in California was eight and a half percent.

Right.

In one point.

At one point it got so aggressive here that was eight and a half and one.

It got better over time, but you know, it.

Yeah, it gets really competitive here.

Right.

And that goes for Texas, particularly the major metros.

That goes for, you know, the Miami.

Miami, you know, day market.

A lot of the major metros are very competitive.

Yeah.

Because there's what's, you know, there's a lot more people out there and there's been a lot of money, it seems, pushed into this space.

And I know a lot of people right now talk about other, you know, asset classes like seller financing and other types of in there, like, oh, that's a, you know, I don't know, a $3 billion or forget whatever size industry they say.

And I'm like, yeah, that's not.

Private lending is just off the charts right now in regards to, you know, probably 10x that I think, or I forget way more than I think.

We're estimating 10, 10 to $12 billion institutional capital flowing in this year, fiscal year 25.

And overall market size, if you factor in DSCR is now in the trillions.

Right.

So it's.

They're fine for kind of like, you know, I guess you can call them smaller shops.

But the challenging issue is there's no scale to it.

There's a reason for that.

Right.

You know, professional borrowers don't do those things.

Yeah.

I was going to say, you know, if you're doing emd.

To me, it's like you might as well just be, you know, call yourself Capital One or Chase because that's really your credit card at that point in time.

Credit card.

You're literally a credit card.

Yeah, yeah, but.

And yeah, to try and scale that would be extremely challenging.

Now is so, you know, we talked about, you know, kind of the offerings and the raising the capital and you know, scaling along those lines.

And have you seen anything or you know, that can lead to roadblocks in the future, whether it's additional estate licensing on private lenders Because I know states on a residential side because we also.

Oh yeah, a little bit in that have gotten very ornery and you know, trying to protect more borrowers as well as, you know, the SEC in regards to or even state regulators in regards to offering docs and with, you know, multi family has taken a little bit of a beating over the last few years and you know, getting better, much better.

Yeah.

But you know, some people, again unfortunately what I see a lot of times is hey, look, a deal's gone bad and people just assume that oh, it's fraud and they try and file something or whatnot where the deal went bad.

So, you know, sometimes, you know, and I live outside of Washington D.C.

so it almost feels like a yo yo sometimes of when something happens they just go to an extreme to create something, you know, to protect it.

But it's just overblown and just curious if you know, if you can see think that will be put more restrictions on the space and certain things that might get restricted.

For example, like default interest rates or anything like that.

Well, yeah, so there are certain states you to watch out for that kind of stuff for.

Right.

So in California is a good example.

California has that hansure decision that did.

That did technically eliminate the ability to charge default interest before maturity.

Default.

You know, that's a thing in California.

Litigation.

A product of litigation.

Yeah.

So other states don't do that.

Right.

The beautiful part about private lending is that it's commercial.

And so yeah, there are licensing state about 10 of them.

But the rest of the market is relatively flexible.

And there's a lot of deference.

Right.

Because it's a commercial transaction.

The challenging issue is like you put it is when.

When you start seeing these transactions that were poorly written and they were actually consumer loans and or the plaintiffs able to turn it into a consumer loan.

Which is also like one of the reasons why I tell lenders, even if you can legally in your home state, you probably shouldn't lend to an individual like ever on a residential deal.

And you should also be following our best practices when it comes to business purpose.

Confirmation affidavits.

Yep.

Yeah, I mean we do it, we do handwriting, right.

So that's important.

The other component is grossly overestimating and overusing capital markets.

We've seen too many people get burned when Wall Street's fickle.

Right.

Wall street is very smart.

There a lot of Ivy League guys work in those desks and they're very smart.

Right.

But they're very fickle.

And so when the market takes a left turn, for whatever reason, they're going to pull out.

And so what I've noticed was a lot of lenders were over reliant and put all their eggs in that basket and they found themselves in a world of hurt when it came to when they pulled out.

Right.

Or they became more stringent and they started enforcing their buyback clauses.

And so the, the lenders were in trouble and so many of those lenders aren't here today.

On top of that issue, there's probably, you know, at, at the small level, the challenging issue is a lot of these lenders have get bad information out there and so they run things just kind of like really fast and loose and it comes back to haunt them.

Right.

You know, we had a client years and years and years ago, you know, they didn't get the best advice.

You know, they use their local attorney and he wasn't the real estate guy.

He didn't really know finance law.

And you know, knock on the door came from the Virginia state regulator.

They're nice, right?

Most state regulars are pretty nice, right.

There are a handful that are pretty aggressive, but you know that it's just, it's an unwanted headache.

And it was a securities issue, lending issues, all kinds of stuff.

And, and thankfully we were able to put it to bed.

But like a lot of times what ends up happening is they, they freak out and then they put their hands up and then they, they end up signing something that they shouldn't have signed.

You know, and I hate to say this, but like it's a simple.

Where like our firm is everywhere nowadays.

We're online, you can find us easily.

Like it's, it's easy to find an expert like us.

And that's one of the things that I still am frustrated with is like guys, you could just, you just, you had to cut that corner, you know what I mean?

Like, yeah, you get there are national experts in this arena, not just us, right?

Contact them.

Right?

And that's so important, you might have a friend at a national shop, like contact them.

Because there's a lot of resources in our industry now.

There's really no excuse to be making these kind of what I call amateur hour mistakes.

Yeah.

And what they're surprised to find out is like, yeah, we represent small shops, we also represent large shops.

We get this misnomer about like, oh, we're, we're too big for them.

Like, no, 90% of our clients are small businesses, like two man shops.

Like, it's not like we don't have two man shop clients.

Right.

So it's very small organizations that end up scaling up and doing really well.

Right.

And so, you know, that's, that's part of who we are as a boutique law firm.

And that's one of the things I always get frustrated, like, ah, man, I wish you had called me because I could have walked you, I could have walked you through this, this when, when it was a question, not an action, you know.

Oh, I'm laughing right now because I was on actually a call the other day with a regulator about getting licensed.

And we have financial, audited financials, and we submitted them and in nmls, you know, you have to fill out information as well.

And you, you know, a typical balance sheet has assets, liabilities and owner equity.

And you know, we fill everything out and then we uploaded our audited financials and you know, our audit.

You don't have a line item that says, you know, one line item that says owner equity.

It's got, you know, common shares, you know, holders and like, and it's like, okay, this plus this and do the math.

And the regulator who's reviewing it keeps arguing with me that the numbers don't match and that like I'm, and I literally am like telling them.

And the auditing firm we use is a, I think the fifth largest company just outside the big three or four out of Pennsylvania.

And they're like questioning their audit.

And I'm like, we also submitted this to the SEC and like, you know, nobody else questions this.

And I'm like, the math, maths.

But they just, they're not getting it.

And I'm just trying to like, explain to them.

And I'm being as polite as possible because I also don't want them knocking on my door.

But I'm trying to figure out, like, how can I like get to them?

And this is where it's like one of these things where I'm at the point of literally I'm going to, you Know, basically pick up the phone and call you and say, yeah, hey look, you know, can you basically, because I know your services assist with licensing and say, I'm just going to hand this over to you and it's worth the aggravation in the cost.

And that's another thing with licensing.

Yeah.

It's like that's one of the aggravating thing because it's.

Yeah.

You got to speak their language sometimes.

Right.

The examiner's language.

They're not always that well versed in the world of finance.

Yeah.

And that goes to the other topic is like they also don't really understand the difference between a business purpose residential loan and a commercial purpose residential loan.

Right.

They have trouble digesting the concept.

And so we find ourselves in situations where the lender's getting investigated in a state where they don't need a license and they're being accused of all kinds of things like, I gotta prove a negative in this situation because, you know, and it was as simple as like, oh, you didn't get the business purpose affidavit.

Or as simple as like, oh, you didn't do it.

Oh, come on, man.

Like we had that issue when again, so we have a regulation A plus offering.

Oh yeah.

And we, when we submit every 12 months you have to resubmit what's called a, you know, your public offering statement.

Again, when first, so first year, you know, we got qualified.

Then a year later we submit no comments, you know, basically just like rubber stamp.

Second year we get it and we get like seven pages of questions and we're like, what is going.

My attorney is like perplexed.

And what happened was in our update, we talked about more about doing business purpose loans because.

And they interpreted a business purpose loan as me giving somebody a loan to operate a restaurant or sell T shirts.

Even though we described it that everything we do by real estate, they got confused by that and basically called like a timeout of like, whoa, you went from a real estate company now to like a bank essentially like, we need more info on this.

And then, you know, after, you know, we had to go back and forth with them on it.

So it was still pretty quick.

And we actually got on the phone with them and just explained it to them of no, the terminology business purpose means just non owner, like an LLC investor who has an LLC to go buy a rental property or.

And then after we explain that to them, just like you said, they're like, oh, now you're talking our language, you're good.

So yeah, happens a lot with the commission, especially there.

People forget this.

It's a.

It's a rotating door at the commission.

Right.

So, yeah, you understand, like there are attorneys there that are in for a year or two.

They're gone for.

They're gone for a year.

Do they come back?

Right.

So it's a.

It, it's.

It's a fun time with the commission.

Especially those reggae because.

So, yeah, the one thing I would tell anybody, and you can probably preach to this, is if you're looking to grow your business, understand it takes time to a, work with your attorney to draft your documents if you're going to do a 506C or whatnot.

Because a lot of people, you know, you've got.

And a.

I'm just gonna use the term a template, per se, of what needs to go in there.

But things like, oh, what's your waterfall structure?

What's your redemption period?

Or do you have a death and disability clause where somebody could.

You know, there's a million questions that, when I went through that my first attorney asked me and I was like, oh, boy, let me get back to you.

So it's not just like, oh, I'm gonna hop on a phone with Kevin and in 15 minutes he can, you know, chat GPT and spit out the answer until.

I wish we could, because I can charge a lot less.

But it's.

Every deal is bespoke.

Every lender is different.

Yep.

I mean, some of the factors around.

I mean, this is one common factor to overlook, like leverage.

How are you going to approach leverage?

Are you going to obtain leverage?

If so, how?

If so, how much?

Also from who?

Right.

And it's commonly overlooked.

Right.

And another topic is like, oh, are your fees in line with market?

Like, it's not just what your fees are going to be.

Are your fees in line with what your competitors are charging?

Because I can tell you, Joe Schmo down the street from you.

Right.

Is charging this.

Yeah.

Right.

And I could tell them that because it's public knowledge, like those guys out there who are competing with you in your market are charging X, Y and Z better be sure that you're able to compete.

Because a lot of times what happens is these guys think about, like, what's good for them.

Right.

That's oftentimes a mistake.

Like, well, no, no, no, no, no.

This is a fund.

Right.

It has to be good for the investor too.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

So that's another issue we find ourselves in.

But yeah, I mean, it's.

Every deal is bespoke.

Every deal is Every business plan is different, every client's approach is different, and every client's profile is different.

So like we, I wish we could standardize this.

Like we have our loan document services, but we can't.

And I've tried, I've tried, I've tried.

And you know, every time is like, I'm really having to massage the fact patterns with the client and explain to them, like, here is the reaction you're going to get if you do this.

Here's what the market can bear if you do that.

Not really legal, but like, here's what are the implications of doing those things.

You know, and also if, then if you look at again goes back to doing business.

If you're doing business in Arizona, California, you know, hey, 100.

Yeah, you gotta get licensed and that's good.

California.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah.

And I always get this a lot like, oh, like I don't need a license.

Like, no, you do care what that guy told you on the Internet.

This is still mortgage lending.

And some states don't care, like California.

And then we have.

We find ourselves in a situation where they get the wrong license sometimes.

Sometimes, right.

Or they put the license in the wrong place sometimes.

That's a big issue in California.

In Nevada too, like, oh, you have the right license, but it's functionally useless because I can't get the loans into the fund now.

So that's, that's another issue.

Right.

So I was gonna say how.

Who.

What are you originating and are using multiple entities that you're putting different.

Because then you're licensing.

Like, how does that come into play regarding who's really originating the loan?

And you know, so there's so many nuanced things that we could talk all day on.

But long story short is you've hit the nail on the head.

Use a professional.

Don't cut corners on it.

There's a cost of doing business and you just have to understand and absorb those costs.

And I'm sure if somebody called you, Kevin, and said, hey, look, what's an approximate range for putting together this type of information?

You know, there's ballpark numbers that typically can be thrown out.

And we're not, we're not super expensive either, I think.

Right.

So we're not in the.

You're not spending 100 grand to do a fine.

You're not spending even 50 grand to do a fun with me.

Right?

We're.

We're sub that, you know, it depends on the transaction.

Obviously, every deal is a little bit different, but like most like run of the mill regulation D, B or C offering.

It's going to be like, you know, between 30 and 30 and 40.

Right.

You do a read, it's going to be more expensive.

You do crowdfunding, reggae, it's going to be more expensive.

But aside from that, you know, your average reg defund.

Yeah, we're right there.

And it's not too far off because what's included is also my time.

Right.

All my time's included in that.

You're not going to see an invoice from me.

And also all like a lot of the advisory work that you need, aside from the legal work.

And that's there's value to that, you know.

Yeah, it's just like you said of asking that question of okay, you want to do.

You know, you've written in this that you're going to do only loans and aren't, you know, San Diego or Orange county.

And you know, you're, you know, this is what you're kind of targeting, you know, that doesn't, you know, you sure, you know, you might want to take a look at that or look at some competition because that somebody could go spend 30,000, 40,000 and just be a failed business plan and have to go back and probably edit the ppm, which a lot.

Yeah.

Then if you have investors in there, then it's more challenging to go edit, you know, adding an addenda to your PPM or.

No, it's not fun.

Yeah, I'd rather avoid that if we can avoid it.

And having understanding the economics, it's a huge value add from our standpoint.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because we have the data.

A lot of folks are like, well, prove it.

Well, here's literally, what is it?

$5 billion of loans being done on light knocks platform.

Here's all the RTL data that nobody has on interest and it's like, it's there.

You can't refute the fact that that market is doing 10%, not 12.

Right.

And correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, you guys host a conference multiple times per year and I think you also publish a lot some of that data throughout the year on kind of what the market's headed, where it's going.

So you can see, hey, look, what's an average DSCR or RTL fix and flip.

And I recall like, hey, Dallas is higher than this place, but this place is lower.

So you provide all that.

Nima does a state of the market for APL every quarter and he's doing one soon with Kevin Warner from Renovo and he always presents the data from Lightning Docs.

Right.

And it's really solid data because the amount of users and loan volume out of that is substantial.

And beyond that, yes, we do our webinars internally and then we have our conferences every year.

And then Nima and I get on stage at APL every year and we do a state of the market as well for the whole year.

Right.

And so, and where we're headed.

So yes, we have two conferences every year.

We're having one in August in Newport Beach.

That's going to be a good one.

And then, yeah, look out for our webinars.

They're all on our website in our emails.

So sign up for our newsletter and you'll get it.

But yeah, I mean the one coming up in a few days I think for APL that Nima's doing and yeah, rate data, volume data, market data, MSA level data.

Right.

So you'll see what markets are suffering and there's also data on volume.

So it's really important to see the.

Other thing that I enjoy with if the content that you provide is, for example, you just had one about is, is this still a good time to do a reit?

Now I watch that and then.

But you also talk about other types of offerings and other types of like hey, licenses in California or other states.

So you can also, well, you provide a lot of what I'll call free content.

So once you could clearly be prepared, somebody goes to talk to you and say, hey, I've watched all these videos, I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing.

Like for example, we invest a lot in the non performing side of things.

Which when I again, this is before I knew you guys existed, I spoke to attorneys like, yeah, you don't want to reap because REITs could be passive.

And then you have to kind of do all this other stuff.

So he's like, don't do a reit.

There are ways.

But yeah, it's tricky when you're in NPL.

But like, yeah, you know, our web, our YouTube page has all of our, all of our webinars, all of our interviews, all my podcast episodes.

It's really easy to get in there.

YouTube, draw, CLP, it's there.

And webinars, there's a whole list of webinars going back four or five years.

And yeah, we've covered REITs, licensing, offshore capital raising, fund structuring, and then we also have the class that we teach for apl.

So there's a lot of resources out there.

So especially on capital raising and funds.

We put out a lot of content and it's really accessible.

And so if you're a member of apl, the fund manager course is really straightforward.

If you're.

If you're not.

Our website and our YouTube page have all the webinars on those topics, so it's not very challenging to absorb the information.

And I always actually send links.

Like before I do a call on a read, I'll send a webinar that I've done.

That way they're prepared for the call.

Great.

As we wrap up a thanks again, Kevin, for coming on.

If people want to reach out to learn more about your services, what's the best way for them to reach out?

And I know if you're watching this online, you can see he's got his website link down in the corner, but yeah, I'll let you.

Yeah, you can just email me simple k.kimasi llp.com and find us on our website.

You can also find us, find me specifically on our podcast platform for Lender Lounge with Kevin Kim a lot of ways.

Right.

You can also just Google Kevin Kim at drossi and you'll find me somehow some way.

Easy to find.

You've got a good social, you got a good online presence.

Oh, shout out to Casey and Megan on that one.

They do all the.

They do God's work on that one one.

I don't know anything about that stuff.

So Kevin, thanks for your time today.

Appreciate it and look forward to seeing you in a few months in Arizona.

Looking forward to it.

Okay, great.

Thank you.

Thank you.